Get Found: SEO, Social Media, and Building an Audience with Matt Diamante

Matt: [00:00:00] Matt Diamante is today's guest on the show. He is the founder of Hey Tony, a digital marketing agency that helps small businesses get found on Google through SEO and content strategy. He regularly posts helpful insights into the evolving world of SEO to over 600,000 followers. He is also a best-selling author with his book Get Found: The No-Fluff Guide to Ranking Higher and Becoming Your Customer's First Choice.

It's an SEO kind of day, so let's cut to that interview right now

All righty, everybody. We have Matt Diamante on the line here, and before we lo- jump into this loaded interview, Matt, what's up? What's going on, and what have you been working on?

Matt Diamante: Oh, what's up? What's going on? Uh, I just had my team meetup. Uh, we were chatting about this a little bit before, but since we're all virtual, we meet up, like, twice a year, and yesterday was our summer meetup, and it was a day packed of fun and activities.

We did a photo shoot in the morning. Everybody gets new headshots. We have some group shots. I'm getting some headshots, too. Uh, you know, there's some [00:01:00] fun stuff in there. Uh, then we did a cooking class, and, uh, then we went on to an arcade bar where we could play all the games for free and have some snacks and all this kind of stuff.

So that's, uh, that's the most immediate thing that's going on right now. There's a ton of stuff that I'm working on. Uh, I don't know if you've been getting into vibe coding at all, but, uh, you can make anything these days. So I'm, uh, I'm- I'm stuck with the, "Okay, I can make this now. What do I work on first?

What do I work on next?"

Matt: Right, right. Well, funny enough, with vibe coding, I mean, um, we're stuck in this weird- weird space both with the podcast and professionally, where we were mostly doing either everything custom coded or using... We were talking about how I was using Webflow for a recent project- Yeah

or using a no-code tool, and then I enhance it with code type of thing. Yeah. And, like, our audience and both us are, like, sort of like, "Do we use vibe coding for this? Like, this feels weird. Like, is- is it the next step?" Some people love it. Some people hate it. And so... And then you also have that sort of analysis paralysis, where I have ideas-

Matt Diamante: Yeah

Matt: but [00:02:00] then you're like, "Do I just vibe code this? Is that really me making it?" And then I... You know. You kind of get, like, stuck up in the weeds a little bit. Like...

Matt Diamante: Well, for me, I'm like, it doesn't matter if it's really me making it. It's my idea that I would be paying a developer to make anyways, but they would take like six months to a year to do it, and it wouldn't be, you know, as good necessarily.

And I'm like, "Cool, I can do this in two hours, afternoon. Great. It can send emails. It can send reports. It can do whatever I want it to do." And it's, yeah, just kind of a game changer. And like I- I'm gonna just say I made this, right?

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Like, it's your... Like you said, it's your idea, and I'm sure you'll be what we call massaging it.

Like, you'll do it, and it'll- Oh, yeah ... it'll- it'll pop out six menus, and you're like, "No, no, no. Two." You know, and you gotta kind of-

Matt Diamante: Yeah, 100%.

Matt: So you were mentioning, like, you know, you would hire developers, so you're not a developer yourself, I don't think. No. Could you tell us, um, 'cause w- you're, you're from the agency Hey Tony.

Yep. Can you tell us about Hey Tony? And, and when I was introduced to you, you were talking about, uh, [00:03:00] how you built it without any funding or paid ads or anything. Can you kinda jump into that sort of origin story?

Matt Diamante: Yeah. You just asked a, asked a whole bunch of questions, so- First, I'm not a developer. I don't know how to do any code.

I don't know anything like that. I know enough to get myself hurt, and we'll just say that. Um, but yeah, so in terms of the agency, um, how did we start it with no funding? That is a really great question. So it's kind of, um, w- I was a freelancer back in the day. We're talking, like, 2013. Uh, I graduate from school, don't really know what I wanna do.

I end up picking up a couple clients here and there, doing some contracts at agencies, and, uh, it wasn't until 2016, uh, sorry, 2017, I started getting my own clients, enough to sustain, and even so much so that I'm, like, working 14 hours a day. I'm like, "Cool, I'm making 10 grand a month," but I'm working so much, so, like, the dollar per hour isn't really that much money.

Um, so I made my first hire, and from there [00:04:00] we just kept getting referrals. Like, we were a referral-only business. Um, and we would just say yes to everything. So it's like, "Can you do, can you build this website?" "Yeah, great." "Can you build this website that's a marketplace?" "Yeah, no problem. Sure, we'll figure it out."

"Can you do Google ads?" "Yep." "Facebook ads, SEO, can you do any of this stuff?" And I was, like, just taking on any and all work that we possibly could, because, you know, when you're at that stage of a business, you're like, "I need, I need to make money. I need to... I don't know if I'm gonna get a new client. We're a referral only."

Um, so with doing all of that, like, I had a love for SEO the entire time, so, uh, eventually I leaned more towards that and we started getting more and more referrals in the SEO space. Um, and that took years. It wasn't 'til, like, 2020... So if it's 2016, 2017, 2016, 2017 that started, it wasn't 'til, like, 2023 where we were making, like, decent money and I had a team of, I think it was three of us or four of us including me.

And it was still [00:05:00] a lot of work, a lot of hours. Um, and part of it was I couldn't hire somebody to do, uh, you know, if I got a Facebook ads client or something, I couldn't hire somebody to do that because I'm like, "Freelancers are too expensive. If I hire somebody in-house, I might not have that client or the need to do that much Facebook ads," if that makes sense.

So it's really just, like, yeah, I f- I found clients, people found me, made more money over the years, and then, uh, it wasn't 'til 2023 where, uh, I kinda got fed up with the whole referral game. Because I'm sure you know this, referrals are great. It's free, costs you $0 to get that client. You just have to do a good job for that client and the previous clients, which I know we all do, or we all strive to, um, and they'll refer other people to you.

Great. That sounds amazing, right? Like you don't have to do any marketing. Of course, free marketing more or less. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Matt Diamante: Um, but in 2023, I got tired of the, like the high highs and the [00:06:00] low lows. Like one month I'd make 50 grand, and the next month I would lose $10,000. And I'm like, "I can't, I can't have my life be that inconsistent."

So, uh, in 2023, I started posting every single day on social media with the idea of eventually I'll grow an audience, I'll have more authority, and people will come to me. Because I don't like, like in the SEO space specifically, and I'm sure web design as well, they-- Like people, businesses get emails every single day saying, "Your SEO sucks.

Your website sucks. Let me fix it for you." Yeah. And it's like, how do you cut through that noise by sending cold emails or a cold call? You can't, right? And that's not me anyways. I, I don't wanna sell somebody something they don't need. So posting videos every day on social media. After three months, no movement.

I was posting once a day, and I was like, "I need more data," so I started posting three times a day. And I did that for another three months, so we're about six months in, and I'm ready to give up. I'm like, I- [00:07:00] Am not getting any traction, right? My followers went from, like, 200, let's say, in January to, like, 1,500 in June, and I'm like, "I've posted 600 pieces of content," something crazy like that, and I'm like, "This isn't worth doing."

But at the start of the year, I made a promise to myself, "I'm gonna try this every single day." Um, and there was guys like Gary Vee and Alex Hormozi who are just like, "Yeah, it's free. Just post on social media. It'll grow your business, change your life," all this kind of stuff. And I was like, "I'm either gonna prove these guys right or I'm gonna prove these guys wrong."

But I really hope I prove them right, right? 'Cause there's a lot of people out there just, uh, s- just saying, "Post every single day. It'll change your life. It'll make your business. People will be coming to you." And you're like, "That's such BS," like, "There's no way that works." And I'm here to tell you it does.

If you commit to doing it , it does work. Um, but what I didn't tell you is in February, I fired my biggest client, which was, like, 250 grand a year worth of business, because they wanted all my time. They didn't like that I was posting on social media, so I took a big risk being like, [00:08:00] "I'm gonna say no to that money.

I'm gonna start posting on social media. Hopefully this thing works out." And because I had people on my team, I had, like, I think three of us, or three, three, uh, employees, I was losing about 10K a month during this entire- Ooh wee ... time. So I was like, "This really, like, it needs to work, um, or I need to figure something else out."

But, um, yeah. And then by the end of 2023, I had, like, 100,000 followers, which it's like, okay, what does that even mean? Is that business? Is that whatever? Um, I was getting so many inquiries without even saying that I do SEO for people, that, um, I had, I think, a team of seven or eight people by the end of 2023.

I hired somebody to run the day-to-day. Um, I had to, like, get Calendly and all that stuff sorted very quickly 'cause I was going back and forth with people being like, "Yeah, when can you jump on a call?" "Oh, I can jump on a call at this time." "Great. That doesn't work for me." You know, all that stuff. So it's making all the mistakes, figuring everything out, um, and [00:09:00] also at the same time trying not to pay for software you don't need, right?

'Cause up until that point, I didn't need, like, a Calendly or something. Yeah. Um, and then, uh, I think the biggest thing with, like, self-funding something is making sure you have money in the bank. I talked to a, a buddy of mine who's a serial entrepreneur. He, like, he runs a haunted house, a chain of nail salons, uh, epoxy for your garage floor, like, all these different businesses, and, like, they have rental property.

Like, it's this crazy enterprise that he's got going on, and he's like- I was like, "What's your number one piece of business advice?" And he goes, "Cash flow is king. If you don't have cash, you can't pay people to do the work, and if they don't do the work, then the clients aren't gonna pay you, and then that just snowballs into, like, this massive thing."

So I was always from the start, like, save money, try to have three months of expenses saved up in case anything happens, you can float for a little bit until the next thing comes. Excuse me. And with that in mind, uh, I also read another book called Profit First by [00:10:00] Mike Michalowicz. If you haven't read it, it is an amazing book about, like, you should probably pay yourself from your business, right?

You should probably have a profit account where money goes away, a percentage of every invoice that comes in goes there. A tax account, everything goes there. Because I don't know about you, but there's been times where I'm like, "I am so rich. I have like 100 grand in the bank." And actually, like, 45 of that, 45,000 of that belonged to the government.

Goes to the government. I had to pay tax. Yeah, I had to do all this stuff, and I'm like, "Great, so I actually don't have as much money as I thought," and here we are again. So it was all about making sure I had enough cash flow. Uh, and I tried other things over the years as well, like I hired somebody to help me with Facebook ads to bring in business for the agency, make VSLs, make landing pages, jump on calls, do all this kind of stuff, and, like, nothing really ever worked out, uh, despite all the promises that were made.

Um, or like, uh, sponsoring an email [00:11:00] newsletter for business owners, like stuff like that, which ended up, like, I broke even on that, but it just wasn't... You know, nothing really ever worked. So it's just trying a bunch of stuff, um, you know, taking those risks or making those bets to be like, "Is this gonna pay off or not?"

Matt: What do you, what do you think, uh, think about social media now? Because I hear a lot of people that will go into social media, like you're saying, three times a day, and they just keep trying, trying, trying. And, and some people will eventually kind of be almost tainted by the social media. They, you know, they resent it.

Either they haven't- Yeah ... you know, made it like you have, or they have made it, but now they see social media differently. Like, social media kind of on the surface is just sort of like- Mm ... I went on vacation and I posted a picture of the beach for my friends- Yeah ... and maybe some strangers to like kind of thing.

It- d- Has it, has it sort of like tainted your, your view of social media? Are you still sort of in love with it? Or maybe, maybe you never were.

Matt Diamante: Um, I, I still really do enjoy posting on social. Um, I'm not [00:12:00] posting, uh, three times a day now. It's maybe twice a day, some days three times. But, uh, there was a while there I was posting like five times a day.

And it's really fun for me because every video I post has the ability to reach new people and help new people, um, 'cause all my content is, like, educational or edutainment, I call it. So it's edu- educational and entertaining at the same time, hopefully. Um, so it kind of tricks people into learning about SEO, and they're like, "Oh, shit, that was actually a lot easier than I thought it was."

Um, so the more I post, the more people I reach, the more people I can help. So if you, if you're just doing it like, "Oh, I need to do this to make money," you're gonna have a bad time, because it's gonna take a while. It's not gonna be worth it, at least maybe for the first six months. Some people see results within, like, the first 30 days, and I'm like, "Good for you."

Um, but for me, I was like, at six months, I had posted 600 videos. I got a lot better at editing, a lot better at shooting, a lot more comfortable in front of the camera. Um, and I'm like, if I would've went viral before that, then [00:13:00] I would've not had those skills and not been able to keep up and not known what to do next.

Um, the biggest mistake I see people making with social is they don't, one, they don't give it enough time, and two, they don't learn from what does well, right? If you have a video that pops off, like the first video I had that popped off was, like, um, six months and, like, a weekend, let's say. I got a million views on a video, and I was like, "Whoa.

Hold on. Let's take a step back and see what did I do in that video that was so different from the ones that I've been posting that have, like, 200 views or 300 views?" Right. Um, and you can see there's a very clear shift. If you scroll back, all the videos are still up. You scroll back, you can see, oh, okay, I'm trying more of the thing that worked, and that's literally all you have to do.

Matt: Just kinda like a feedback engine, right? Like, you just kind of- Yeah ... like a feedback loop. You're like, "Oh, okay, people like when I talk about this particular topic or when I film in this certain way," and then you can kinda run from there.

Matt Diamante: Yeah, it's like a comedian goes on, like, they [00:14:00] go to all these nightclubs and stuff and, like, tell a bunch of jokes, and then they go home at the end of the night and watch the recording or, you know, whatever it is.

And they're like, "Oh, these ones did well. Okay, let me refine that. Let me do more of that topic or more of that style or more of that pacing or timing or whatever it is." And it's just refining, refining, refining, and eventually you have something that doesn't hit every time, but it has more of a chance to.

Matt: Do you, do you SEO your social media? I would imagine maybe you do- No ... 'cause I know... You don't. No. So you just, you just sort of make it for the, for whatever video is, you know, coming up that day or whatever.

Matt Diamante: Yeah, and like I, I don't do, um, batch content. Okay. Batching content to me, I'm like, how are you gonna learn from something that did well on Monday if you already have, like, a month worth of content or a couple weeks worth of content filmed and edited?

Like, your reaction time is so much slower, right? Um, and in terms of, like, optimizing or for, like, for SEO social media content, like, that [00:15:00] is such a... And it's, I think it might become a little bit more important, but you're basically trying to do two things. You're trying to optimize for the algorithm on Instagram or TikTok or YouTube or whatever it is, right?

To get views, to get followers, to get people watching your stuff. And then you're like, "Well, actually, let me optimize this for Google," which is a whole different type of optimization. It's a whole different strategy. Um, and it's like, okay, well, if we do both, we're probably gonna optimize for neither.

Matt: Yeah, I can, I can definitely see that.

It kind of... Like, with social media too, it feels like it's less, uh, I'm gonna call it traditional SEO, and it's more like a trick, where you're like, "Oh, Instagram likes it when I use the edits app this month." So you do that- Yeah ... and you, you always get 1,000 views even if the video's not good. So then all of a sudden when that algorithm change comes down and they don't care about edits anymore, you kinda feel cheated almost, where you're like, "Man, now I'm back to 200.

What the heck?" But it's-

Matt Diamante: Yeah ...

Matt: not the videos that were doing better, it was you were trying to, [00:16:00] like, get the bot to see you

Matt Diamante: more. You're trying to game the algorithm.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Diamante: And that's the thing, like, whether it's with SEO or social media, like, people are like, "Oh, game the algorithm, trick the algorithm, a hack," whatever.

It's like you don't want to try to trick the algorithm. You wanna try to make content that people actually are gonna enjoy consuming, or in terms of SEO, they're, it's solving their problem, right? People don't go onto Google just for fun. Well, I mean, some people do, but like to look up a funny video. But, like, at the end of the day, they're typing something into the search box or into the AI mode or AI overview, and they're looking for a solution to their problem.

Maybe they're bored and the solution is a funny video. Maybe their, um, driveway is all cracked up and they're like, "I wanna seal this thing." Right. "Give me a product to seal it," or, "Can somebody come do this for me?" So they're looking for now a service to come fix their driveway Right. So SEO is people have a problem, they're looking for a solution.

Social media [00:17:00] is, I don't know what I'm looking for, I hope the algorithm serves me something that I can watch and that's gonna be entertaining or that's gonna be of value to me in some kinda way. Does that make sense?

Matt: Well, yeah, it totally does. And, and I was actually gonna ask you there, like, where, where do you fall with SEO now?

'Cause SEO traditionally is just sort of more or less Google, and I, I know there's Bing- Yeah ... and other things, but more or less Google, you wanna be the top blue link, as high as you can- Yeah ... especially organically, and that's it. But, like, things have changed a lot in the SEO landscape. Like now, 'cause people are asking those questions like you're saying, you know, "Can I...

What product do I need to seal this asphalt driveway?" They might ask that to Gemini. They might ask that to Copilot. They might ask that to- Yeah ... another AI assistant. Where do you fall with SEO now? Like, what do you... I don't know if you, if it, if it's a, do you recommend things different? Do you have a hopeful future of SEO?

Like, what's kinda your status with it right now?

Matt Diamante: I have a hopeful future, and I just sent a newsletter out to my email list today about this. So Google just released a, um... In Google Search Console, you can now see, which... Sorry, Google Search Console, for anybody who doesn't [00:18:00] know, um, is how you submit your site to Google, and you can see all the keywords that you rank for, the positions, how much traffic you're getting, and it kinda gives you a little bit more insight into what they f- what they deem important.

So they're releasing a new feature, which is, like, AI overviews or AI mode or AI, um, performance. I forget what, what they're calling it. It's not out yet. At least I don't have access to it. But, um, so they released that, and I'm like, "Okay, well, I've already been saying it's important to show up in the AI overviews or get recommended by ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever it is."

And the reason I think SEO, like, it's, it's very exciting moving forward, like, looking forward into the future, where it's like, okay, well, AI can only regurgitate stuff. If you go to ChatGPT and say, "Write me an article about whatever," or, "Make me a page about whatever," it's not finding any new information.

It's not making stuff up. Uh, sorry, it might make stuff up, but it's not gonna make anything new up, if that makes sense.

Matt: Right. [00:19:00]

Matt Diamante: So I think with all the AI stuff that is coming out, like the AI videos, um, the AI content, AI agents, all this kind of stuff, I think we're heading into a landscape more where people are looking for the humanity, right?

People don't wanna follow an AI, uh, Instagram account that's just all about, or not all about, but like it's just videos of AI people talking. And I'm sure there are people out there, I've seen some of them trying to do like, "Hey, I'm gonna post social content every day. I don't have the time to do it, so I'm just gonna get an AI avatar who looks exactly like me, and it's gonna f- get fed in a script from AI, and it's gonna do all this stuff."

And I'm like, that's not creating anything new. I mean, technically it's a new piece, it's a new video, but like it's not new information, right? Like the stuff we're talking about on this podcast is new information.

Matt: Right.

Matt Diamante: Right? You can't go to AI and say like, "Hey, I wanna do, um, a podcast. I have a guest coming on.

You know, give me, uh, questions that nobody's ever asked before so that we can, you know, learn [00:20:00] more about this topic or whatever." Um- And yeah, I think we're leading more towards like human-to-human contact or connection and I don't know if you've seen it recently, but there's a huge trend right now of yap content.

Do you know what this is?

Matt: No, I'm not

Matt Diamante: sure. It's literally, it's literally people like walking around or sitting and just like yapping, just talking. Okay. Right? And there's like a whole strategy behind it. Um, but it's just like you're talking to a friend, you're like i- it almost comes in mid-conversation and you're slowly revealing that there's like here's, here's the problem.

Like, I have a problem with this, and then you go into like, oh well, you know, I deal with this all the time because this is what I do for work, and all this kind of stuff. So it's like you're having a conversation with a friend, and they're like not very tightly edited necessarily. They are more storytelling, less like, you know, here's the hook, here's the reveal and conclusion.

Like it's not like as linear [00:21:00] anymore, if that makes sense.

Matt: Yeah, no, it totally does 'cause I actually watch a guy who, um, sometimes just to fall asleep, I watch a guy who just walks down the streets and just talks and be like, "Oh yeah, there's a Burger King here now," and stuff. And you're kinda getting the, the POV of like a random street- Yeah

in Michigan or he travels all over Michigan or here or there- Yeah ... wherever, and like that's kind of, I think falls into that. And like I, I find it pretty like chill and calming and that's, that's super interesting. But I wouldn't wanna watch his AI avatar do that.

Matt Diamante: Yeah, 'cause you're like, "What is this shit?"

Like this guy didn't- Shit ... actually walk this street. Like is it, is any of this real?

Matt: Yeah. Right? Is that, is that supposed to be a Mr. Sub or is that a Burger King? You know, like what did it, what did it invent in this spot? Yeah.

Matt Diamante: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's, it's brutal with like ... The thing is like AI should be used as a tool to get things done quicker maybe rather than replace your brain, right?

Yeah. If you're using it to do the thinking for you, you're not gonna have a good time, you're not gonna get results. Um, but if you're using it as like a tool, so I'll just give you an example. So when, uh, so I have a community called the Hey [00:22:00] Tony Insiders, and one thing we do is every Monday we have a work session where literally we talk for like five, 10 minutes.

You know, "Hi, how's it going? Anybody have any wins that they wanna share?" And then it's like, "Cool, now we're gonna work on SEO for the next 45 minutes or whatever." And what we do is we basically find questions that our customers are asking online, or potential customers, and we go into ChatGPT or Claude or whatever people wanna use, and we say, "I'm writing a blog post about..."

whatever the topic is, whatever this question. "Ask me anything you'd need to know the answers to in order to write a truly unique piece of content that uses my expertise, my experience, my case studies, my opinions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera." And then I just use voice mode. I answer those questions one at a time, and now it's pulling my experience.

I don't even have to type. Pulling my experience, my expertise, my opinion on something, why it's good, why it's bad, why I love it, hate it, whatever. Um, and [00:23:00] you can really digress as well, and it can pull some of that into your content. Um, and so now you're making a piece of content that doesn't exist anywhere else.

Um, and yeah, that's what AI's really looking for at this point, and that's what people are looking for, right?

Matt: Makes sense. Like, even going back to something as simple as the asphalt example, like, if there was a new formula that's using ceramics or something- Mm-hmm ... inside of the asphalt sealer, it's like, you know, Gemini's not gonna know that until you and I talk about it suddenly or, you know, someone who's in the industry talks about it.

Matt Diamante: Mm-hmm. Well, like, it's also, who would you trust more? Like, say, let's, let's say you do have, like, cracks in your driveway, and you're like, "Okay, well, uh, you know, I... Google knows where you live. I live in this area. Um, I wanna seal my driveway. What, what's the best thing to do?" Are you gonna trust somebody who lives in the same city as you, or somebody down in Florida where it gets ex- significantly hotter and they might need a different product that's rated differently?

Matt: Right.

Matt Diamante: Right? So you're gonna want, [00:24:00] you know, the guy down the street.

Matt: Yeah, the neighbor. Yeah. Like, really.

Matt Diamante: Yeah.

Matt: The, well, let me ask you a question there. So like we, we, when we talk about SEO now, we're talking about a lot of like selling products. So like selling a product or a service. So, you know, selling the person the sealant- Yeah

in the driveway, selling the, selling the, you know, the actual sealant. Um, one question I do have, and I, and I get this actually from the audience quite a bit, is that AI is gutting things. They're always worried about that. You know, the, the job market and everything else. But in, in, in terms of AI s- or in terms of the, uh, SEO market specifically, the main concern I hear about is it's gutting information sites.

'Cause we, we've seen for years and years, like, um, Smart Passive Income Podcast, the first one that comes to mind. Uh, many other examples of people saying, "Hey, you know, if you're really passionate about like, uh, RC cars and you wanna, you know- Yeah ... you know everything about RC cars, just publish a bunch of content, a bunch of guides, a bunch of this, a bunch of that on the RC cars, and then, you know, Google will pick you up if you, you know, play the, kind of play the game correctly a [00:25:00] little bit.

And then, you know, boom, you're good." Yeah. But now people are saying, "Hey, that's, you know, that's dead." Because, uh, my... I, I've been asked this question personally, and one of my things is, is like I don't know if the sort of AI SEO, the GEO, whatever we're gonna eventually call this thing. I'm sure it'll- Yeah

amalgamate to one thing. But the AI, I- I don't know if the AI overview is gonna be, you know, a solution for, for anything but people who want the click to sell you something. Yeah. Because like I'm not really selling you anything if I'm just saying like these, this is the like, I really like these tires on a car, on an RC car.

Matt Diamante: Well, it's, I think it's partly building that human connection, right? So in AI mode or AI overviews or ChatGPT or whatever, if they're finding information, they're citing like, you know, "Matt from Hey Tony says this," then it's like, okay, well, that's building trust, that's building familiarity with me and the brand, all this kind of stuff.

Um, I don't think it's a bad thing. Like, I think, yes, some websites will lose traffic, [00:26:00] right? We're heading towards, like, a zero-click, um, you know, ecosystem or a zero-click world where the answers are just served in front of you, which, like, is scary. It's like, well, people aren't coming to my website now.

They're not gonna buy my product. They're not gonna buy my service. But at the end of the day, I'm like, if Google's recommending or pulling from your website these answers, they know what you do, right? You have that topical authority. I fix driveways, right? Uh, or I fix, fix asphalt driveways, whatever it might be.

And you need to show Google and ChatGPT and, you know, all these LLMs that you are the expert in your niche, in your field. And you're not gonna do that by not publishing or by, sorry, by not publishing helpful blog content. You're not gonna do that by only having here's my products and services, right? You need to show up.

You need to... And like, I'm sorry, at the end of the day, like, why not help somebody? Even if AI isn't sending you traffic or isn't [00:27:00] necessarily recommending your product or service or whatever, like, why not help somebody who has a problem? It's costing you zero money.

Matt: Right.

Matt Diamante: Right? And, uh, also, so let's say, um, AI's recommending your business a lot, right?

Or your content a lot. Do you not think they're gonna be like, "Oh, this person seems to like, you know, Matt's content. Maybe we should show them Hey Tony when they ask for which SEO agency they should go with." Right? So Google's looking at all of this stuff.

Matt: It's that, like if you're gaining authority with Google effectively, and then you're-

Matt Diamante: Yeah

Matt: yeah, you're kind of gaining that reputation. Um, do you think, do you think, though, that the sites that don't offer anything except for the read, do you think that they're... 'Cause you're saying, you know, zero-click, like you were mentioning, like- You're

Matt Diamante: talking like blogs basically.

Matt: Yeah, like, yeah, like just, just somebody who's, like, a fan of, like, the RC car again.

They don't actually- Yeah ... sell the tires. They're just like, "I really like these tires. I tried them out." Do you think that they're, those sites are in trouble? Like, or is that kind of a thing of the [00:28:00] past?

Matt Diamante: Yeah, like what are those sites doing? What's the purpose of having that website? Just share your ideas, right?

Matt: Right.

Matt Diamante: Like, why not push people there from social media? Like, you're not really selling anything, and if you're just depending on Google Ads or whatever banners on your website, like, that, it, that's doesn't work, right? It might be good for awareness or whatever it is, but, like, you can drive traffic to your website from Facebook or X or from LinkedIn or whatever you want to those blog posts and really get into those niche topics that people can find it.

Matt: What, what would you do for a client like that? Like, let's just say we have the RC car idea. Let's just say I've- Yeah ... you know, I've, I've made up this RC car guide. I'm not selling anything, I just have the ads, and I'm not really push- like, I'm just doing the traditional SEO. I'm not pushing it, like you're saying, from social media to the- Yeah

to the, to the website. And, you know, I come to you and I say, you know, "I n- you know, I need help."

Matt Diamante: Yeah.

Matt: W- like, how do you... Like, that's- ... that's kind of a, a, a brand-building question. It's kind of a loaded question, but, you know, how do you- Yeah ... like, push that [00:29:00] person? Or do you just say, like, "You know, that's kind of an antiquated idea.

We need to, like, change a bunch of stuff." Like...

Matt Diamante: I, I won't take on a client who is, like, a, just a blog or, like, a news website. Like, I used to run a publication back in, uh, 2014 to 2016, and we grew it from zero traffic, like, I literally registered the domain, to, like, four million visitors a month, and I made a lot of mistakes during that time, like servers crashing and not having the appropriate amount of bandwidth, all this kind of stuff.

Um, but even back then, like, yes, we were probably making, like, 20 grand a month, 30 grand a month off of ads, but it was costing us a lot of money to run that publication. For sure. And now I'm like, with AI, yeah, we could, you know, pump out way more content, right? It'd be way cheaper, have half the staff, all this kind of stuff.

But everybody's doing that, right? Right. Who's to say, like, unless it's, like, a, a very reputable publication, it- there's no point in starting something like that if you [00:30:00] don't have something to sell.

Matt: Okay.

Matt Diamante: Yeah. Like- What- Like to, to get f- like one, we were getting four million visitors to our website a month.

To make $20,000, like you ... And it's even worse now, right? The CPMs or the eCPMs are much lower. Um, and we also had like ad partners, like Vice was selling our ads, and in Canada, Corus was selling our ads. So we were getting higher than usual CPMs, but for like a regular everyday like blogger, like you're gonna have a bad time.

Matt: And, and I can definitely see that. Like, I mean, even with the HTML, the Things website, I mean, it was just sort of a side thing, but like the instant AI overviews came in, like the clicks- Yeah ... were just dropping off like crazy and it, and it'd be like, you know, the article's still just as good. Like, it's not like it was- Yeah

you know, using an AI ha- or a, uh, an SEO hack or something that became old. Yeah. It was like the AI overview came in on the, on that main keyword and then poof, you know, that, that guide's no longer- Yeah ... getting the clicks.

Matt Diamante: But the thing too is like we need to s- like, as time [00:31:00] changes and as, you know, platforms change, all this stuff, we need to change the way that we're creating content, um, whether it's a video or visual or written content.

Um, like I'll just give you an example. So when you go to a website, you're having a problem, you're looking up, or you're, you have an interest and you're like, "Oh, I wanna learn more about this," you go to a website and you have to read recipe websites. I'll just use that as an example. I just wanna know how much butter I need to put in these cookies, right?

I don't want to hear that it's your grandma's recipe and like scroll down a bunch of shit through a bunch of ads, through all this stuff to get to, oh, it's one cup of butter or whatever it

Matt: is.

Matt Diamante: Right. Right? Um, and that really, like that is like the worst user experience in the world. So how can you make a better user experience?

You go to Google and say, "How much butter do I need to make blank cookies?" Or how much whatever. How much sealant do I need for this driveway? And then it's like, oh, it tells you right away. Great. Right?

Matt: Yeah.

Matt Diamante: We should be doing that with our content, right? Here's the question, here's the answer.

Matt: Yeah, you don't need [00:32:00] to- Right?

"Cookies were invented in 1856 in..." Yeah, like the- Yeah ... classic like sort of like run-in or the ramp- Yeah ... the on-ramp. I forget what they, we, we used to call it back in the day, but the on-ramp of- Yeah ... of like sort of like hitting every keyword, and then, yeah, and then, and then you need one pound of butter. You know?

It's like- Yeah ... oh, thank you, you know, after, after 40 paragraphs, you know? And, and the history of cookies. Yeah.

Matt Diamante: Well, like people are also lazy, too, right? Like, they're on Instagram, TikTok, like they're watching 30-second videos, minute-long videos that are like very quickly cut together. Even with YouTube, same kinda stuff, where like their attention spans are a lot less.

So it's like you're gonna make me hunt in 5 to 10 paragraphs to find the answer to my question? Hell no. Right? They're gonna go to ChatGPT and say, "How much butter do I put in this?" Right? And then at that point it could be like, well, you know, allrecipes.com or whatever website, uh, mentions that if you're making this type of cookie you should do this.

And then it's like, oh, well actually let me go to that recipe site. Right? Yeah. Or let me buy that cookbook, or let me whatever. [00:33:00]

Matt: Yeah. And it, well, and, and that makes sense. Like it's building that authority, especially if you're constantly checking, oh, I actually need sugar, too. You check, you check it and it's, you know- Yeah

all, or allrecipes.com again. Then it's like- Yeah ... oh, okay, I, I'm able to, you know, I, I, I've s- I've seen this twice already. Let me like click in and- Yeah ... and check out their products.

Matt Diamante: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Well, so you were saying like you wouldn't take on, you know, a client today that's just a publication, that's just a blog.

You know, taking on a client in 2026, obviously we're kind of like, I don't wanna say in the post-AI age. We're kind of in the post it being introduced, and now it's rapidly evolving, whatever stage you wanna call that, rapid growth stage. Yeah. Um, you know, what would you tell somebody? Like if someone approaches you, you know, and, and, and they wanna build their brand, you know, what, what does that look like now, like to you?

Is it, is it still, you know, blog, and then now like social media as well, and it's this and that? Or is it now like, ah, the blog can wait. Or, you know, what is it like now?

Matt Diamante: So in terms of if somebody is just, like they don't sell a product or service, if they come to us I'm like, "There's nothing we can do to help you."

Nothing at all? Okay. You need to figure that out. Like you need to figure that out [00:34:00] before you do basically anything, because how are you gonna make money? What's, like why are you spending so much time and effort into this? Like, and I, I wanna say like, okay, well yeah, not everything should be about money, but y- if you're running a business, everything's about money, bottom line.

Matt: Right.

Matt Diamante: Right? So why are you doing it? Um, so if a client comes to us who has a product or service that they're selling and they're like, "Okay, well what do we do?" Yes, blogging is something that we do. We're gonna make sure they have pages for all of their products or all their services. Um, we might do location pages.

We're gonna fix up the site speed to make sure that the user experience is as good as it can get. Um, we might advise them, like, "Hey, you can add some buttons here." Like, we don't do any website development for our clients. Um, like add a button here or above the fold, which is, um, if anybody doesn't know, when you get to a website, uh, before you scroll down, that is called above the fold, right?

Yep. That's the first thing people see. It's an old newspaper term, but, um, it's like if you don't have a button, a call to action there, like book a, book [00:35:00] an appointment, book a free call, buy the product, you know, register now, whatever it is, um, the chances of you actually getting the person to buy from you is, like drastically reduced.

Matt: For sure. For sure.

Matt Diamante: Right.

Matt: I even see that with, I mean, even, like, I mean, I'm a, I'm a very avid golfer- Yeah ... and, like, you can tell when someone has just kinda thrown together a website and it's like I, I already know, like I've, I've driven by your course and I just wanna book a tee time. Yeah. I don't need to hear about you were, you know, you, you were designed by some PGA guy.

It's like I just wanna see it. I wanna just book a time. Yeah. I wanna go tomorrow or whatever. You know? Yeah. I just wanna go. Give

Matt Diamante: me the big button. Yeah. Book tee time here.

Matt: Pretty well. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Diamante: Yeah

Matt: So then, so, so for SEO and that then, you know, like SEO kind of, you know, is or was really like, you know, worrying about your, your heading hierarchy, worrying about trying to hit certain keywords.

Yeah. Has that evolved at all? Like, i- is it, is it r- drastically different trying to get into these AI overviews and things? Like, you're trying to become that trustworthy source.

Matt Diamante: Yeah. So [00:36:00] I think we're still, like we're in like a 50/50 stage right now where like the traditional SEO is still there, and then there's this new era of SEO where it's like, it's contextual, it's people are asking longer questions, right?

People are looking for more information. They're not just typing in keywords anymore, they're typing in keyword plus location, plus, uh, I want a dentist who has five-star reviews and, uh, who's in Hamilton and specializes in Invisalign for kids between the ages of 12 and 18, or 12 and 13, whatever it is, um, who also has a good reputation, right?

Who's, who also goes to church, who's maybe, who's also Christian, right? And then it's scanning all of this stuff and giving you like a very specific answer, like specifically to you. It's like we almost all have assistants at this point.

Matt: Right.

Matt Diamante: But to caveat that, you still need some structure in your content because that's what people are used to, that's what people expect.

So you're heading one tag, biggest text on the page, that tells people what [00:37:00] that page is about, right? Then you have subheadings, right? So H2, H3, those different tags. You still need that to break up your content. You still need images. You still need, uh, actual good content that's providing value to the person.

It's not about keyword stuffing or anything like that. Um, yeah.

Matt: Do you, do you recommend, I was gonna ask with the generic, or not the generic, but the, the very specific organic, I suppose, um, like you were saying about the Invisalign and all these parameters. Yeah. 'Cause I know that FAQs have taken a hit recently with, you know, their, the schema is no longer really, more or less not really- Yeah

supported. You know, you can look up, the listener there, you can look, look up the specifics on that. But I've, I've still found success by having, like, a good FAQ for clients where I say, like, "Hey, if you, if you have a specific thing," like, if you are a dental office and yous- and you, you specialize, like you, you in your niche know that kids, like, you know, nine till 18 have anxiety issues or whatever when it comes, comes to going to the dentist-

Matt Diamante: Yeah

Matt: and you specialize in, like, calming methods or whatever- Yeah ... [00:38:00] put that in your FAQ in sort of a long tail form so that you're not targeting those, like, little keywords. Like, and then Google will still pick up on it even though it's not the whole schema and everything anymore.

Matt Diamante: Yeah. So for me, I'm like that should just be woven into the content.

Like, why not have a, a heading two tag that says, like, "We deal specifically with kids who have anxiety around dentists," right? And then, like, give a little bit more information, or have a page on your website, even better, that talks about that, and, like, what do they do to calm these kids down. Because as a concerned parent, not only, like they're, they're not gonna trust necessarily what, uh, AI Overviews is giving them right away.

They're gonna do some research, right? They're gonna find the best person or the best dentist in this case to treat their kids because they want their kid to have a good time, right? Or the least worst time that they can have.

Matt: Right. Right.

Matt Diamante: Um, somebody's gonna treat them well and with respect and, you know, with care, all this kind of stuff.

Um, so it's, to me, I'm like, yeah, the FAQ schema, adding all that to your website, like, [00:39:00] we don't do that. We never have done that. Um, my whole theory is Google is looking for topic mat- matter experts. They're not looking for SEO experts, right? So unless the, all the competition is doing all of that stuff, like sure, maybe we start doing some of that.

But I've found, like, you can rank without backlinks, you can rank without, uh, doing, like, all the schema stuff. You can rank without doing a whole bunch of other things. Like, I just launched a website, um, oh my God, when was it? Like, three days ago or something, called AI Readiness Checker. So it checks to see if your website has, you know, certain elements that AI agents are looking at or looking for, I should say And I published the website, didn't submit it to Google Search Console.

There's no tracking, Google Analytics, anything on the website. And I made one social video saying, "Oh, this tool will help you see if your website's ready for AI. So if you're not showing up, go check it out. It's called, I think, like AIreadinesschecker.com." And people [00:40:00] just go to Google, they're typing that in.

There's... I think there's, like, a bunch of H1 tags on the page. Like, it's not optimized, it's not anything, and it's ranking very well within three days. Brand-new website, just registered the domain, no backlinks, no nothing. So people are looking for very specific things, and Google knows it.

Matt: Makes sense, 'cause it's al- it's almost like I, uh, you know, I've told my clients and like, you know, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've told my clients, like, what you're really doing is we're trying to talk to Google, and Google is just a person that I, I always say is a person that has no context.

Yeah. And so the more you can kinda give them context without overstuffing and everything else, you know, it'll understand what you're doing. And like you're saying, like, yeah, there are certain hierarchies with the headings and things that you, you know, should do, but it's not mandatory. Yeah. It's if somebody speaks a bit of broken English to you, you know, we can figure it out kinda thing.

Yeah. It's still getting the message across kinda thing. Um, uh, I, I think as a, as, as sort of a, a, a kind of a final question, uh, to you, just what, what, like, so, you know, S, uh, SEO, SEO has definitely radically changed [00:41:00] like we've, like we've discussed today. You know, someone comes to you today, uh, and then they do have a product, and they have all that.

Like, what's the Hey Tony experience? You know, like, what is it? Is it... Do, do they... Do you guys make them videos? Are you guys just helping with the, the, you know, you looking at the pages- Yeah ... and the above the fold stuff? Or like what is, what is that experience like?

Matt Diamante: Um, so we're focusing more on the content on the website, like creating the blog posts, making sure that their expertise and experience is in there, making sure that they have, like, a good user experience, and then telling them how to fix that stuff, like, with their developer or if they're doing that themselves.

Um, we also do, like, Google Business Profile optimizations. We do some backlinking. Um, we'll do brand mentions as well, so some press releases, stuff like that. Um, but now we're getting into a place where I'm trying to figure out exactly how to do this, and this might not be, like, the best thing for me to talk about on a podcast, but, uh, I'm gonna do it anyways.

So- The way that AIO reviews and, you know, people are [00:42:00] using the internet is they're not just looking for, uh, one source. They wanna know, is this person active on, uh, Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever it is? Um, are they publishing content on their website? They might not be as, like, um, specific about that, but if they go to your Facebook p- profile or your Instagram account and it's like you haven't posted in 365 days, you're like, "Is this business still here?

Are they still real? Are they in business still?" Um, so it's like having more signals to send to Google and to people like, "We're a legitimate business. We're still operational. We care. Here's a case study," or, you know, "Here's a tip on how to do this thing." Um, and it's having more... So it's like that would be stuff that the clients need to do, that we would coach them on how to do, if that makes sense.

Matt: It's sort of almost like having your, like your, your activity, like in a chat app, you know? Yeah. Okay, so that's across everything where it's like, sort of like, "Hey, is this..." 'Cause that's a very good point, is this place closed? 'Cause I had a guy who just didn't wanna use Facebook, but yet had a page. Yeah.[00:43:00]

And I even told him like, "Hey, man, it kind of looks like you're not around anymore, but you're super active on Instagram for whatever reason you like that one." Yeah. And I was like, "Just do the cross post thing. At the very least- Yeah ... like, just keep, keep the door open. Keep that green light on your little, you know, your Teams chat indicator kind of thing-

Matt Diamante: Yeah

Matt: figuratively speaking.

Matt Diamante: 100%. And like, it's, it kind of sucks that running a business is like, well, now I need to do all this marketing stuff. But honestly, like two hours a week you can spend marketing your business. Like, it's so much easier to do now. We have so many tools, and like, you don't need to hire a videographer anymore to make a quick video to post on Instagram or Facebook or whatever it is.

Like, you know, pull out your phone, "Hey, we're open." Like you're talking to the front camera, "We're open right, right now. Uh, we have this new chocolate bar, just came out, check it out." Break it in half, whatever it is, and show people the product, show people what you do, show people that you're an expert. Or like, have them get to know you a little bit better, right?

If you're a family man or [00:44:00] you have, you know, dogs or cats or whatever it is, like you can talk about some of that stuff or mention it in your videos because that's gonna attract a different person. If you're like a church-going person or the opposite, you can talk about that in your videos, too, 'cause that's gonna attract different people.

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Diamante: Right?

Matt: That makes a lot of sense, too, especially with how we search now. 'Cause w- we'll search on like Google Maps for like the local barbecue place. Mm-hmm. Then it's like, oh, I like ribs, so you click on the best pictures. You're looking at the pictures. But then you might click on the Website button or you click on the Facebook button or whatever they have as their website link, and then you're like, oh man, this person's talking about how they made the sauce and how they do the smoking.

Yeah. And then you're like, man, I really gotta check this place out. It looks like a ton of work goes into making these ribs.

Matt Diamante: Yeah. Or it's like, oh, they posted a video on YouTube that shows like an eight-hour slow roast, whatever it is. Yeah. And like, it, yeah, it's a time lapse that might stop every now and then with them explaining something.

But it's like, here's a four-minute video of an eight-hour roast. Here's all the prep that went into [00:45:00] it. Here's it cooking. Here's what it looks like at the end, all this kind of stuff. And then, you know, obviously cutting off a piece and being like, tasting it and being like, "Oh my God, this is so good."

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

And that's what sold... That, that usually what sells me. That's what I do every year for, like, my birthday. I'll go get the- Yeah ... some ribs, and that's what I always look for. "Let's find a new barbecue place," and it's never

Matt Diamante: just the meat. Man, you're making me hungry. Like, we're talking about ribs now. I'm like, I'm starving at this point.

Matt: So good. Go and... Go, go, go ask Google what the best ribs are in town. I know. 100%. Well, Matt, thank you, thank you very much for, uh, being on the show. Um, but with all guests I always say, you know, uh, give you a moment to take the floor, kinda plug whatever you'd like, any URLs or, you know, causes, charities, whatever it is.

Okay. Uh, and we'll be including those in the, uh, the show notes on htmlthings.com

Matt Diamante: Um, well, I wrote a book called Get Found. Uh, it was a best-selling SEO book on Amazon. Um, it... If you don't know anything about SEO, this is the book for you to read. Uh, it's written in plain English. It has, [00:46:00] uh, strategies. It... Like, if, if you don't know anything about SEO, you'll come away knowing how to do SEO without being, like, an SEO expert.

If that makes sense.

Matt: Excellent. Okay. Yeah. Yes. And I have that link. Uh, like I said, it'll be in the show notes on htmlthings.com if you wanna check it out. Again, again, Matt, thanks for being on the show. It's been a blast.

Matt Diamante: Thank you for having me. It's been great.

Matt: Well, I hope that you enjoyed that interview as much as we did, but unfortunately, it is time to end. But if you wanna support episodes like this, you can do so just like these fine people did on Patreon. That's patreon.com/htmlallthethings. And our $3 patrons are Tim from The Web Hacker on thewebhacker.com, Jason from Geek Life Radio via geekliferadio.com, Garrett Segall, Level Up Financial Planning via www.levelupfinancialplanning.com, Magnus from Yes Web via yesweb.se, Syntaxify from the HTML All The Things Discord server, and Stacy Mosteller from the website swoonworthydesigns.com.

[00:47:00] And we'd also like to give a shout-out to Michael LaRocca, a contributing author on htmlallthethings.com. Michael is the author of Self-Taught: The X Generation blog at selftaughttxg.com. Feel free to leave a comment or a review on the platform that you are listening to this on, and we are signing off